MTA Chair and CEO Janno Lieber appeared on NY1’s Mornings on 1 with Pat Kiernan and Jamie Stelter to discuss congestion relief and other transportation issues.
A transcript of the interview appears below.
Pat Kiernan: Donald Trump says congestion pricing is dead. Governor Hochul and the MTA say, not so fast. After the president moved to kill the tolling program by revoking its environmental approval, the transit agency immediately filed a lawsuit challenging the federal government. At a news conference at Grand Central yesterday, Governor Hochul was fired up about the president meddling in the state's affairs.
Clip of Gov. Kathy Hochul: Case you don't know, New Yorkers, we're in a fight. We do not back down, not now, not ever. Because who are we fighting for here? We're fighting with, for our residents, our commuters, our riders, our drivers, emergency personnel. Life has gotten better, than those with asthma, people illness. That's who we're fighting for.
Kiernan: We've got a good view of Janno Lieber’s chin in that shot. We got the full Janno Lieber with us this morning. Thank you for coming in.
Janno Lieber: Always good to be with you.
Kiernan: This has been such a rapid but not unexpected turn of events.
Lieber: Yeah.
Kiernan: You were prepared with a legal response, and I want to get into a little bit of the substance of that response. Why do you believe that the federal government is acting incorrectly here?
Lieber: Well, as you said, we were completely prepared. We had a 50-page complaint ready to go, and we hit the button to file it about three minutes after the release, the official release of the Secretary Duffy's letter purportedly terminated the program. Here's the bottom line. It's not really even a close case. Under the federal program, what we did is exactly what the federal program says you can do. And there's all kinds of regulations and prescriptions in the federal law that says the program that we are running is exactly what the federal government intended. Remember, this has been in effect for, since 1991, so this is not a new program, and we're right within it. Even more important, though, in terms of the legal case, that under the rules of the program, the federal government cannot unilaterally terminate a program once it's begun. There are lots of ways it can get terminated, but they always have to include the agency that's running the program. The federal government cannot unilaterally terminate the program.
Kiernan: The Secretary Duffy, in his letter, used what read to me as specifically trying to preempt a legal challenge. He kept using the word reliance, that I don't believe that the MTA should have relied on the Biden Administration's approval, and that it's okay for us to take it away because the MTA didn't rely on that, is that going to come up in the court case?
Lieber: Listen, in addition to the specifics of the program, which, as I said, do not allow the federal government to unilaterally terminate a program once it's been approved and once it's begun, there's all kinds of case law in federal courts about the procedures that the federal government has to use to take away an approval to reverse a decision. None of this complies with that, and that's why we are so comfortable that this is a strong case, and we're going to win. Interestingly, the Secretary's letter did not say in any, at any point, we have to stop the cameras now. They said we'd like to talk to you about turning them off. Obviously, we're not going to do that. But I emphasized, I think they know that they don't have the right to terminate the program, and we'll see what happens.
Kiernan: Okay, he did an interview with CBS yesterday. We’ve got a clip from that interview.
Lieber: Okay.
Clip of U.S. Secretary of Transportation Sean Duffy: She [Hochul] never did a study to say, I really care about congestion. I want to reduce congestion. So, I'm going to look at how much money should I charge in a toll, and how much will that reduce congestion? That analysis was never done. So, instead of paying $9, could someone pay $5 and reduce congestion, or $3 to reduce congestion? She didn't do that.
Kiernan: How many pages was the environmental study?
Lieber: It was for… Listen, in fairness to Secretary Duffy, he's new to the job, and he had not been fully briefed, but we studied that -- four thousand pages, four years of study. We studied all different ranges of tolls, and, contrary to what you just heard, we actually analyzed the relationship between specific tolling amounts and reductions in congestion. The tolling amount that he was talking about clearly would not have met the requirements of congestion reduction. I think we're-- when the federal judges take a look at it, they're going to find that we actually did exactly what he said.
(Commercial Break)
Kiernan: Let's continue our conversation about congestion pricing. The Trump Administration has moved to put the brakes on the program. Janno Lieber, the MTA Chair and CEO, in studio with us this morning. The congestion program is only six weeks old. When you came in just a few days into the program, you said you had anecdotal evidence that showed that the early results were good. How are you feeling six weeks in as this program is threatened by Washington?
Lieber: I think we're all thrilled. I mean, first of all, I just got to say I was thrilled by Governor Hochul’s determination, passion, yesterday. That kind of leadership is really steadying for everybody at the MTA during this somewhat tumultuous period. But the one of the reasons that we're so optimistic is that the program is working even better than people hoped. We, last month in January, we kept 1.2 million cars off of the streets that would have been there based on the stats from last year. Bus speeds, travel speeds, people are flying through the Holland Tunnel. People are getting across crazy, usually congested streets like Canal and 34th Street and 57th Street so much faster. And all of the indicators of the business, there are a lot of people who are concerned about would business be impacted in the congestion zone, are incredibly positive. Broadway is way up. Restaurant reservations are way up. There's more foot traffic in the congestion zone than out of the congestion zone by a lot. Those are all indications that this is having a positive, not negative effect on the economy.
Kiernan: I was with somebody yesterday who has been a Queens to Manhattan car commuter for 30 years, said he's happy to pay the toll. Yeah.
Lieber: He and two thirds, in the recent polls, two thirds of the people who actually drive to Manhattan support congestion pricing because they're the ones who are getting these incredible savings in travel time.
Jamie Stelter: But in what has now become really a battle with the Trump Administration, do you wish you had done a bigger, louder victory lap before now?
Lieber: Nah, I think it was, our job is to preserve the principle. We're doing fact-based evaluation. We're letting the public know. We're in the transparency business. We're gonna tell people what we're seeing, what we're finding, but also be honest about. You know, this is the first six weeks, we're not declaring victory. But the first six weeks have had even more positive impact than anyone would have anticipated. The improvements to traffic and travel speeds were almost immediate, and New Yorkers get it, which is why you're seeing people, you know, shift their views, and all of a sudden people are polling that they love this.
Kiernan: So, what happens if the toll goes away? If you're not successful in court, if the toll has to stop, are those bond deals already done, or are you now going to have to renege on commitments?
Lieber: Bad stuff happens. Listen, I don't think that that is a realistic scenario. I'm going to be very honest with you. I think the case is so airtight that we are confident that we're going to be there. As I said yesterday with Governor Hochul, there is no plan B. But the Trump Administration and the leaders of US DOT have to consider what it means to all these bond deals nationally, which are based on tolling revenues. If the federal government says we can pull back that approval at any moment, there are toll roads in Texas and Florida that depend on approvals from this same program. That would have huge, would really make bond holders nervous, and it would mean that future toll backed revenue bonds would be a lot more expensive to issue. That's something they got to consider.
Kiernan: What if you win the battle, and the court case is upheld, but you lose the war, and that the Trump Administration comes back and says, “Okay, we lost that, but we're going to take away every other drop of discretionary funding we can to the state.” They have indicated a willingness to use federal funding, unrelated sometimes to their goal, as a wedge to make things happen. That could blow a big hole in the budget.
Lieber: There is all kinds of, you know, speculation, hypothesis we can work with. I'll say this. I'll say it again. Donald Trump is a New Yorker. He knows New York, I believe he's, you know, will in the end, putting this issue aside, have the wisdom not to try to go after New York again and again and again. That's my…
Kiernan: Even after saying, that his White House put out…
Lieber: In addition to that, the guy that they have named as the Federal Transit Administrator is a New Yorker, and he was the county executive of Dutchess County. He had a plan for the MTA, and you know what? We've made good on every one of the things that he proposed in that plan. It was, you know, five or six years ago. So, I'm optimistic that the traditions of bipartisanship on transportation and the way that the federal government has funded transportation through formulas. It's not all discretionary money.
Kiernan: Yep.
Lieber: It will prevail in the end, but obviously we have to get through this period of tumult with the White House and with the federal government and keep moving. I am very optimistic.
Stelter: And, so, you are suing them for now. Everything stays on, and it will stay that way until if and when a federal court says you've got to shut them off?
Lieber: Bingo, you got it exactly right. I mean, they didn't, as I said, they didn't even ask us to turn off the cameras right away. They said they wanted to talk about it. But more important, something of this kind cannot be taken away without a federal court order. We're going to fight it all the way.
Kiernan: One of the other things that the Transportation Secretary said in his letter, was that you should have designed a toll zone, where you could get in and out for free. How could that have worked?
Lieber: I honestly don’t know. I think that the bigger principle is the one that Governor Hochul laid down yesterday. It’s like we are a nation of laws, not kings. The whole principle of federalism is that there is some local control. When people from New Jersey yell at us about our tolls, my reaction is, when are you going to say New Yorkers don't have to pay tolls on the Garden State or the Turnpike.
Stelter: The New Jersey Turnpike.
Lieber: I mean there's something slightly ridiculous. The Republicans have always supported local control. This is a, you know, a clear version of that. I think we're gonna prevail.
Kiernan: Janno Lieber, thank you.
Lieber: You bet.